Curse

TheHaxor · Feb 05, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by moko

even if the post is old, it's not fully correct. the order of casting the enchants actually matters.

spirit bond triggers before the damage actually lands, but the enchantment order doesn't matter. anything that would have done over 60 to you if you were unprotted triggers it

Reverend Dr · Feb 05, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

The order of the enchantments matter, but there are so many exceptions that a hard rule may not be able to be set.

Prot spirit and spirit bond together, order does not matter.

Life barrier + life bond (Yes I'm side tracking into stuff never used in pvp) the order very much matters

Retribution/Holy wrath/reversal of damage order do not matter as the trigger is the amount of damage the attack actually inflicts.

There is no hard fast rule as to when order matters. Its just important to know how the enchants on your bar are going to react. I have forgotten most of the orders that matter and getting together a list of the common PvP enchantments and their stacking order would not be a bad idea at all.

EDIT: This was mentioned once, but I feel it was overlooked. Right now with PS in almost every match, definitely run a cripple run. With the rune + reduced cripple shield you have just enough time to kite a PS sin for the cripple to run out and not get KD'd from trampling. Now you should be able to get a draw/aura/weapon/guardian before the chain goes off anyway, but having a way to dodge the KD on trampling without using energy or skill recharge time can be powerful.

Sun Fired Blank · Feb 05, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

For 1v1, Heal Party is not a skill that you often have a chance to gain +6E from using, and is not a skill that you want to use often because of energy premiums. Heal Party is always energy efficient, but the expense to a monk is extremely high versus having those broad amounts of red bar damage rounded off by the various (ridiculously efficient) midline party heals that are presently available.

Heal Party's greatest benefit is that unlike PwK or the DF healing skills, it's pretty much always available, it's a much larger heal, and it can be used consecutively back to back. This makes it more useful, as you mentioned, in the context of immediately undoing significant amounts of damage to avoid a wipe.

In general, you're not going to be able to cover channeling because you'll be getting Rended. Even if you are only getting rip, you're not always going to be able to patient yourself to cover your enchantments, and I wouldn't say it's reliable.

Five minutes is a really high number to use for a "blame your monks" breakpoint. Even a really good backline insulated behind a reasonable amount of midline defense can collapse a minute or even two before that point, and unless you have some ridiculous amount of defense, and the other team also has no damage whatsoever, a three minute turning point is more realistic.

Dmitri3 · Feb 05, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by moko

even if the post is old, it's not fully correct. the order of casting the enchants actually matters.

we tested it ages ago, i assume it still works the same way. i just can't remember how. =P think spirit bond has to come first regarding prots.

HOW DARE YOU IMPLY ME BEING WRONG!

Actually the only skill where the order with Spirit Bond matters is Aura of Faith. In that case, Spirit Bond first, then Aura so the healing doubles and actually triggers in the first place.

That's also the reason why this skill virtually does nothing when cast on a warrior stuck in Frenzy.

TogoTheTiger · Feb 06, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

For 1v1, Heal Party is not a skill that you often have a chance to gain +6E from using,

In general, you're not going to be able to cover channeling because you'll be getting Rended. Even if you are only getting rip, you're not always going to be able to patient yourself to cover your enchantments, and I wouldn't say it's reliable.

Five minutes is a really high number to use for a "blame your monks" breakpoint. Even a really good backline insulated behind a reasonable amount of midline defense can collapse a minute or even two before that point, and unless you have some ridiculous amount of defense, and the other team also has no damage whatsoever, a three minute turning point is more realistic.

1)
A) People Ball. If the leader has 2 heroes and the ghostly, there are 4e right there. 2 other people walk by and tada.
B) Come to think of it, courtyard is 1v1v1... So is Halls... And halls is basically where you go, and stay. So there are a lot of 3way maps...

2) I never said covering it one time would protect against red. even with 0 curses you take off 5 enchants. However some teams combo both. So you need to know when he will use rip, and when he will use rend. since rend has a 20 charge and channeling has 15, they will rip if they have it.

3) Meta currently has ridiculous amounts of defense. Good monks will not die before 5 minutes unless the other teas an equally good offense. How do teams live for 30 minutes if THREE minutes is a realistic turning points? You need better monks.

Signet Of Hell · Feb 06, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TogoTheTiger

A) People Ball. If the leader has 2 heroes and the ghostly, there are 4e right there. 2 other people walk by and tada.

You're assuming that everyone in the team is bad, including the monks. Good players micro their hero's positions, which, fair enough, you don't come by a lot. Who cares about ghostly? Give the sins a morale boost, all their skills are like less then 10 seconds anyway and your tease has the fire shutdown already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TogoTheTiger

B) Come to think of it, courtyard is 1v1v1... So is Halls... And halls is basically where you go, and stay. So there are a lot of 3way maps...

Depends what time you play. Seems to be a lot of Underworld, wait 8 mins, Fetid, was 3 mins, Halls. You don't come across 1v1v1 as much as you're saying at all (in my timezone especially, its UW, 8 mins, Halls).

Quote:

Originally Posted by TogoTheTiger

2) I never said covering it one time would protect against red. even with 0 curses you take off 5 enchants. However some teams combo both. So you need to know when he will use rip, and when he will use rend. since rend has a 20 charge and channeling has 15, they will rip if they have it.

Run [Word Of Healing] and learn to use it at the right time, one WoH is mad healz and owns patient dwaynas spam tbh. If you insist on running HB, run [auspicious incantation] [heal party] and give yourself full energy every 30 seconds. [/quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TogoTheTiger

3) Meta currently has ridiculous amounts of defense. Good monks will not die before 5 minutes unless the other teas an equally good offense. How do teams live for 30 minutes if THREE minutes is a realistic turning points? You need better monks.

I don't know if it has ridiculous amounts, but it has a fair bit. Defensive spikes win vs meta (if you got semi-decent players). Weapons only own stupid people, unless they got 2 gwens, then its ghey stuff. Spike out people (i know vent has become ancient technology, but you can still log on) and it's gg, get your monks/midline to wand and weapons should go to useless places.

GG its free fame most of the time

Sun Fired Blank · Feb 06, 2009, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Ridiculous? In the past for balanced, people have run just as many defensively weighted skills in their midlines (predominantly in the form of bitch ritualists and some other midline skills) and I know good teams with good monks that have succeeded or failed in less than that five minute timespan. Teams only live 30 minutes when they have a really absurd setup like two Me/Rts and they sic one or both of them on midline. Other than that, I don't know exactly what "ridiculous amounts of defense" you're talking about.

Krill · Feb 06, 2009, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Support rits usually brought some offense though Sun Fired (channeled strike, ancestor's rage or smiting). What we have now are teams that have the equivalent of two support rits with no offense. Plus the ele and necro usually bring the support skills (MH!, SoC, WaF, grasping) the human support use to bring. It only works because of the retarded synergy between PS burst damage and a kd, LC, fire aoe and rend enchantments.

True that people basically played it the same with warriors and dervs before, but those were a lot easier to defend against by slowing adrenaline on warriors and denying enchantments on dervs, and this was before PnH made any sort of hex defense useless. Sins just wait for skills to recharge and try again with no prerequisite for huge damage. Anyway moot point, nothing will change.

Only point I'd make about monking is now that hum sig is out for tease heroes you might consider running WoH, easier on energy and opens up a couple slots for more hex removal or maybe an extra small prot.

TogoTheTiger · Feb 06, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Signet Of Hell

You're assuming that everyone in the team is bad, including the monks. Good players micro their hero's positions, which, fair enough, you don't come by a lot. Who cares about ghostly? Give the sins a morale boost, all their skills are like less then 10 seconds anyway and your tease has the fire shutdown already.

Depends what time you play. Seems to be a lot of Underworld, wait 8 mins, Fetid, was 3 mins, Halls. You don't come across 1v1v1 as much as you're saying at all (in my timezone especially, its UW, 8 mins, Halls).

Run [Word Of Healing] and learn to use it at the right time, one WoH is mad healz and owns patient dwaynas spam tbh. If you insist on running HB, run [auspicious incantation] [heal party] and give yourself full energy every 30 seconds.

I don't know if it has ridiculous amounts, but it has a fair bit. Defensive spikes win vs meta (if you got semi-decent players). Weapons only own stupid people, unless they got 2 gwens, then its ghey stuff. Spike out people (i know vent has become ancient technology, but you can still log on) and it's gg, get your monks/midline to wand and weapons should go to useless places.

GG its free fame most of the time

1) Most people running HA now-a-days either ARE noobs, or ACT like it and screw up once in a while. I don't care about killing the ghostly in that spot. He is simply being use as +1 Energy by channeling. Please reread before you whine.

2) Even you said, it depends on your timezone. But when you get UW; 8 minutes; then halls, that means every other match is 3way! That just proves my point further.

3) Reason #1 I won't run WoH: Me/Rt's just got a HUGEEE nerf. That will mean people will try human Me/Rt's for one day, then go back to PD's. ANY PD that has played this game for atleast a day can divert WoH. And then you're back where you started, but with no HB. Auspicious AND no HB defeats the point of [Heal Party] . It will now be a 2 sec cast. Any PD could see this skill, switch and divert something else, then come back and PD it. AND now it will be disabled for roughly 7-8 seconds longer. That means you can't spam it worth a damn. The 2 second recharge is why it owns Divine Healing/Heavens Delight.

4) I NEVER said you can't kill the meta. I said you shouldn't die within 5 minutes IF you have good monks. You say it doesn't have ridiculous defense?? 1-2 PS sins. With a 4 sec recharge on PS, they can PS a frontline every other use. 1 N/E with LC and Snares. There are another Ward V Foes and Grasping, IF the PS didn't piss off frontlines enough. 1-2 Fire eles. They will have E/Rt WoW AND E/P SoC + MH if there are two. WoW is another 50% block +3 Health Regen. SoC prevents teases. MH makes the opposing frontliners QQ MORE if the PS AND Foes AND grasping wasn't enough. 1-2 Heroes. These would have been Me/Rt before the nerf. They have un-human reflexes with WoW and WoS, PLUS can tease a 3/4 sec cast Palm Strike. If an interupted PS doesn't make a frontliner QQ, then the aforementioned things will. If they aren't Me/Rt's they're Mo/X. These have smites that make the stop the opposing team from grasping your own monks. It gets removed in 1 second. 1 PnH - Obviously PnH will destroy any hex-way or the dead ritspike, if it tried to come back. Or even contagion for that matter. They also have dual party heals, plus ANOTHER hex rip, that can rip up to 4 hexes. And if you don't have an E/P with SoC make haste, you're Mo/P PnH has that AND brace yourself. Say goodbye to KDs on both primary monks.
I'm not even going to mention the 2 monks that are supposed to keep a team alive for 5 minutes, yet CANT.

........Yeah, that's not ridiculous defense.

-Edit- Badly placed end quote.

Marxon Aurion · Feb 07, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Most HB monks redbar because you can. It actually works better than my GvG approach in my experience. People are making a big deal out of it, but HBing in HA is nothing more than just finding a channel mob, spam the shit out (redbar), get your shit rended (this only happens against half decent teams, of which aren't around that much these days), save a little energy and get your shit back up. And put your channeling up some seconds before the match so you can refresh if rended almost immediately, this way you will be ahead of the render if they have only one. And the other only non redbar situation is infuse. Apart from this you can dance a real life polka till you can refresh your channeling anyway, since you won't change the outcome of the match (apart from infuse and a good Cure Hex).

Oh, and yes, I think a Cure Hex is better. But it's mainly preference.

I agree that playing a prot bar in HA takes a little more skill to do effectively, but usually red barring works as well. If you don't believe that I'll point you to the dozens of extremely bad prot monks that try GvG.

NoXiFy · Feb 09, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stupid Shizno

so when we run our standard balance build with 1 cure hex, 1 ls we get 20 consec?

ls is better for the ps meta, just learn to use it, there arnt numerous conditions on a target, learn to prot, follow the sin, watch him PS, LS it off. gg sin.

but your what, rank6 right? you know everything, gg

and learn to weapon swap correctly
you keep your inventory up for a proper swap since there are more then 4 options. or you must be those rank3 kids who camp 1 sheild set when the meta of HA is two very consistent damage intakes.

as for cure hex over spotless, wiki has spotless because people theorycraft, rank9+ groups ask for cure because its better. spotless will get rended before the 5 sec mark and if not, its going to get covered.

this is why you dont win halls

Whoru, never even heard of you. However, i can tell that your complete shit because of the following reasons: a) you've never won halls b) your in eF, and c) RC > LS anyday. Ok, Palm sin comes up... palm strike (cripple), trampling, falling spider (poison), twisting fangs (bleed+deep wound). 4 Conditions x 66 health each from RC = 264 health + 35.2 from DF = 299.2, so almost 3 health heal. That heals someone for half their entire health bar... as opposed to LS that would heal... 95 IF there hit for that much, plus your only removing two conditions... so you need to cast it again. You just spent 10 energy with a maximum heal for 260.4 IF they hit for 95 each time (which they probaly wont because there DONE with their chain, so they'll be hitting for 7-17 or using a palm strike while there waiting for recharge.

Don't talk.

Phe Belladona · Feb 09, 2009, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoXiFy

Whoru, never even heard of you. However, i can tell that your complete shit because of the following reasons: a) you've never won halls b) your in eF, and c) RC > LS anyday. Ok, Palm sin comes up... palm strike (cripple), trampling, falling spider (poison), twisting fangs (bleed+deep wound). 4 Conditions x 66 health each from RC = 264 health + 35.2 from DF = 299.2, so almost 3 health heal. That heals someone for half their entire health bar... as opposed to LS that would heal... 95 IF there hit for that much, plus your only removing two conditions... so you need to cast it again. You just spent 10 energy with a maximum heal for 260.4 IF they hit for 95 each time (which they probaly wont because there DONE with their chain, so they'll be hitting for 7-17 or using a palm strike while there waiting for recharge.

Don't talk.

ok... you said what the RC chain is, here's the LS chain: PS->LS->Trampling.. no KD, now needs to wait for PS to recharge to use it again... see how its good? LS also doesnt get interupted by humans much, is self targeting and allows space for shielding hands yay ^^

sororitygirl · Feb 09, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marxon Aurion

Most HB monks redbar because you can. It actually works better than my GvG approach in my experience. People are making a big deal out of it, but HBing in HA is nothing more than just finding a channel mob, spam the shit out (redbar), get your shit rended (this only happens against half decent teams, of which aren't around that much these days), save a little energy and get your shit back up. And put your channeling up some seconds before the match so you can refresh if rended almost immediately, this way you will be ahead of the render if they have only one. And the other only non redbar situation is infuse. Apart from this you can dance a real life polka till you can refresh your channeling anyway, since you won't change the outcome of the match (apart from infuse and a good Cure Hex).

Oh, and yes, I think a Cure Hex is better. But it's mainly preference.

I agree that playing a prot bar in HA takes a little more skill to do effectively, but usually red barring works as well. If you don't believe that I'll point you to the dozens of extremely bad prot monks that try GvG.

I love your depressingly accurate description of HA monking.

And as for the cure hex/spotless mind debate: if backline is capable of keeping the important hexes cleaned they might as well bring cure for the redbar boost. I prefer spotless because I'd rather have two more hexes get burned than get a little redbar jump. However, in reference to dr - obviously use cure hex in this meta given mindless LC necros and the fact that you're probably using a pnh =)

P.S. mad props to you on your party window-less protting m8 ;-) glad to hear ya took my advice and it worked out for ya

Reverend Dr · Feb 10, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

I don't understand why people think LS is the magick counter to palm strike. Trampling is only one of three dual attacks on that sin. A half decent sin is going to use the other two if the cripple is removed often. Even then the threat from trampling isn't the single knockdown, its that it can knockdown every eight seconds. The only thing LS is alright for is self targeting and especially speedy removal of daze. The powerheal behind RC is the reason that it the monk elite, the elite run from prophecies through today.

dr love · Feb 12, 2009, 09:12 AM // 09:12

alrighty, same thread, new question:

when protting, i encounter the problem where I'm trying to mouse click on my ally on the screen to prot him as a frontliner is coming to kick his arse, but I end up selecting someone else (usually the frontliner cause he's blocking the view of my ally).

i've read some high ranked GvG monks use keyboard setups where they select their allies using keys as opposed to clicking on them with the mouse. A common setup would be:
skills 1-8 are keys: qwerasdf
select ally 1-8 (excluding urself, that's done with 'c') are keys: 12345tg

do any of you use a setup similar to this with success? or possibly a different setup?

Arya Nibelrund · Feb 12, 2009, 11:31 AM // 11:31

My setup: WASZ for moving, Q&E for dodging. Keys 1-8 for spells, sometimes I use mouse to activate skills 7-8 (farthest keys from left hand) and definitely to dismiss veil. Spells from 1 to 3 are the most used ones so I can reach them very quickly. To target own party members, clicking on them is the best way to miss them especially when things start getting hectic. I use numpad, keys 1-8 are for party members, 9 for ghostly when there's no priest and 0 when there is. Once you get used to this you will find yourself rarely using mouse and you'll be able to select your teammates instantly.

pixie the monk · Feb 13, 2009, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

ok... you said what the RC chain is, here's the LS chain: PS->LS->Trampling.. no KD, now needs to wait for PS to recharge to use it again... see how its good? LS also doesnt get interupted by humans much, is self targeting and allows space for shielding hands yay ^^

Or the magic skill called pdrain ^^ inter eles,soc wards

Pdrain,im loving it!

ps: the energy you get from it is also a plus

Divinus Stella · Feb 13, 2009, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbulger

alrighty, same thread, new question:

when protting, i encounter the problem where I'm trying to mouse click on my ally on the screen to prot him as a frontliner is coming to kick his arse, but I end up selecting someone else (usually the frontliner cause he's blocking the view of my ally).

i've read some high ranked GvG monks use keyboard setups where they select their allies using keys as opposed to clicking on them with the mouse. A common setup would be:
skills 1-8 are keys: qwerasdf
select ally 1-8 (excluding urself, that's done with 'c') are keys: 12345tg

do any of you use a setup similar to this with success? or possibly a different setup?

Thats what our monks use, they always complain if we have midliners on different party numbers.

I think its a must for any decent monks to have that sort of setup in GvG but in HA you just need to have really big red party bars and your fine.

Krill · Feb 13, 2009, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixie the monk

Or the magic skill called pdrain ^^ inter eles,soc wards

Pdrain,im loving it!

I've noticed lately some monks making an attempt to try different stuff than the standard HA backline, p-drain, mantras, warrior stances / shield bash...nothing new but there certainly is room to try different stuff. I think a pretty solid setup is mantra on the HB monk, shield bash or bonetti's on the prot and run a draw or FF somewhere else if you need it.

Marxon Aurion · Feb 13, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

That's because HB is actually countered very easily with rend (HB not that much of a problem but channeling is, you have to spam with HB to get good heals). Too bad there is no other single template that is capable of keeping people up that well.

When I monk, I just click the party screen. I just got used to this and for me it works optimal. I don't believe in having 2 hands on the keyboard while monking and I never have trouble getting the right target after I see he needs to be saved.